july 98

WHEN THE HELL IS MJ GOING TO GET OFF HIS ASS AND GIVE
US SOME NEW MATERIAL????

That is all.  Thank you.

 

Steve

- --------------BEAF37786322B778D38A92C4--
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:18:09 -0500 (CDT)
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From: "Kyle Milligan"
To: "gertz"
Cc: "Infected"
Subject: Re: What
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 20:09:02 -0700
Message-Id: <199807180017.UAA01904@toronto.planeteer.com>

d) everyone's afraid of being considered too nosy or ignored?

Kyle Milligan
toldyaso@planeteer.com

- ----------
From: gertz
To: The The-Liste
Subject: What
Date: Friday, July 17, 1998 11:28 AM

Please tell me which one you think is the answer to the question: Why do you
never/ rarely ask each other something 'personal' (for the case this list
didn't change extremely since two months ago..)

a) This list is just to exchange info/ opinions about music. It is not
important to know the others as individuals/ it's not interesting.

b) you already know each other
c) from time to time you are curious to get to know something about the others

(Sorry, I'm not really sober and in this 'hippie-mood' eh..: )
Oops. I'll be sorry for sending this by tomorrow I think.

Chrissy
------------------------------
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From: Mark_Gaertner@wbsaunders.com (Mark Gaertner)
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu, robert jimenez
Subject: Re[2]: not a communication but a reply
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:15:06 -0400
Message-ID: <0027B890.@wbsaunders.com>

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I'm currently reading Bataille's Erotism: Death and Sensuality. It's
quite good, although I wouldn't agree with him that death is the
ultimate extreme of sex. Instead, I'd have to say that sex is an
affirmation and expression of life and a kind of transcendence with
the right approach (as in "Beyond Love"). I agree with you that
there's a lot of Matt Johnson there too.

I'm fascinated by the intensity of desire and lust to the point of
pain. I also love how in his songs, Matt seems not only to struggle
with the intense desire and lust, but also with the fact that it's
such a struggle for him. There's a lot of frustration there, not just
with the object of desire, but with the desire itself. And that's a
big reason why the The is so great. Matt makes no doubt about it that
he comes from a Christian background, but in his analysis of desire
(i.e. "True Happiness This Way Lies) he's going more the route of
Buddhism. But it's all about the questioning, isn't it?


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: not a communication but a reply
Author: robert jimenez at ~internet
Date: 7/21/98 9:19 AM


robert jimenez wrote:
>
> to chrissy, jennifer and kyle:
>
> i came in contact with the The through my relationship with my better
> half, partner in crime. she explained to me, in a round about way, that
> there was more to the rapture of pain than Schopenhaur or Bataille. It
> had to do more with the Erotism of modern society as well as the
> intensity of desire, and lust. at that time i considered myself a well
> rounded being, always comparing my life experiences as portraits of the
> id being my guide, but from time to time i feel through the visions of
> Matt Johnson.
>
> rm j
> 7.20.98

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Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:19:41 -0500 (CDT)
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From: robert jimenez
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: not a communication but a reply
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:19:06 -0700
Message-ID: <35B4BF7A.73B0@dcccd.edu>

robert jimenez wrote:
>
> to chrissy, jennifer and kyle:
>
> i came in contact with the The through my relationship with my better
> half, partner in crime. she explained to me, in a round about way, that
> there was more to the rapture of pain than Schopenhaur or Bataille. It
> had to do more with the Erotism of modern society as well as the
> intensity of desire, and lust. at that time i considered myself a well
> rounded being, always comparing my life experiences as portraits of the
> id being my guide, but from time to time i feel through the visions of
> Matt Johnson.
>
> rm j
> 7.20.98

- --
>From - Fri May 23 10:17:46 1997
From: Mozilla
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 20:47:45 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Welcome!
Message-ID: <30208242nsintro@netscape.com>

As you see here, this mail message bears remarkable
similarity to Netscape's home page. That's because Netscape's integrated
email
presents messages with the familiar formatting, images, and links of
World Wide Web pages.

BORDER=0 ALT="WELCOME TO NETSCAPE">

Features in Brief Use the toolbar to quickly browse and reply to messages. Use menu items for the complete range of mail features. Create all messages in Message Composition windows, which are created with the various Reply commands. From the Message Composition window, use the Options menu to choose immediate or deferred delivery. Drag and drop messages into folders to organize your mail. Click on column headings to sort messages. Drag column headings to reorder their presentation. Click-and-drag on the space between column headings to change the relative sizes of the columns. Click the Mail icon in the lower right of any Netscape window to check for new messages. Choose Address Book from the Window menu to store and access your addresses. Choose Mail and News from the Options menu to set your preferences.

Learn More about Netscape Mail The Netscape Navigator Handbook offers tutorial and reference information on mail features. Take advantage of the Handbook's index for quick access to the topics that interest you. Unix users, especially those who use procmail, should be sure to read this document, which explains some important Unix-system-dependent issues about file locking, which are important to understand to avoid losing mail. Supplemental Resources [FAQs | Support Pages | Navigator Technical Notes | HREF="snews://secnews.netscape.com/netscape.navigator">Navigator User Group]

------------------------------
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 05:09:42 -0500 (CDT)
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From: "True Love"
To: "Infected (E-mail)"
Subject: interesting reference to ...
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:08:20 +1000
Message-ID: <000101bdb558$a9adc890$86150dcb@pudding>

The first part of an article from THINK, Winter '97:


RECOIL Unsound Methods (Reprise)

Alan Wilder, ex-Depeche Mode keyboardist, has distanced himself from his
former outfit with the dark tones of his side-project Recoil’s third
release, Unsound Methods. Not since The The’s Infected or David Lynch’s Blue
Velvet, has an artist crafted such an intense, brooding collection of modern
morality tales masquerading as pop music, using film imagery and
atmospherics. Those expecting the melodic harmonies and tunes of the Mode,
will be alienated by the lurching dramatics and gothic aspirations of Recoil
’s sound.

------------------------------
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:21:36 -0500 (CDT)
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From: "Colin Rafferty"
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: please note: the The is a starting point only for this
message!
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:20:14 PDT
Message-ID: <19980722202014.7521.qmail@hotmail.com>

Well, then, here's my first post.

So I'm watching "Vs. the World" yesterday, and I begin to wonder if I
can think of any bands that might not sound like the The, but instead,
have lyrics or running themes that echo Mr. Johnson's work.

Here's my nominee: 16 Horsepower.

A musical 180 from the The, but if you're looking for intensely
religious lyrics obscured by a curtain of doubt, then 16 Horsepower's
your boys. And, hell, they love Hank, Matt loves Hank, it's all good.

Anyone else agree with me? Have another nomination?

And yes, I remember when this used to be about the The, but then again,
I also remember when the The put out albums.

Colin
khebar@hotmail.com

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:42:19 -0500 (CDT)
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From: "David Hirsch"
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: please note: the The is a starting point only for this
message!
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:39:20 -0400
Message-Id:

i don't agree with you, but i will say that 16 horsepower is an amazing band. scary dark religious music. the singer truly sounds in pain, and his lyrics reflect a disgust with/embracing of christianity that the the has not approached. more of a nick cave comparison, i think.

- -dave.

>>> "Colin Rafferty" 07/22 4:21 PM >>>
have lyrics or running themes that echo Mr. Johnson's work.

Here's my nominee: 16 Horsepower.

A musical 180 from the The, but if you're looking for intensely
religious lyrics obscured by a curtain of doubt, then 16 Horsepower's
your boys. And, hell, they love Hank, Matt loves Hank, it's all good.

Anyone else agree with me? Have another nomination?


------------------------------
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:35:21 -0500 (CDT)
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From: astubbs@BayNetworks.COM
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: RE: please note: the The is a starting point only for thismessag
e!
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:32:48 -0700
Message-ID: <4161A623F78DD1119A3F00805FA73177014342B7@bayxsc02.corpwest.baynetworks.com>

It kind of sounds to me that you do agree. Which bit did you not agree with ?

- -Adrian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Hirsch [mailto:Hirsch@foe.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 1:39 PM
> To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
> Subject: Re: please note: the The is a starting point only for
> thismessage!
>
>
> i don't agree with you, but i will say that 16 horsepower is
> an amazing band. scary dark religious music. the singer
> truly sounds in pain, and his lyrics reflect a disgust
> with/embracing of christianity that the the has not
> approached. more of a nick cave comparison, i think.
>
> -dave.
>
> >>> "Colin Rafferty" 07/22 4:21 PM >>>
> have lyrics or running themes that echo Mr. Johnson's work.
>
> Here's my nominee: 16 Horsepower.
>
> A musical 180 from the The, but if you're looking for intensely
> religious lyrics obscured by a curtain of doubt, then 16 Horsepower's
> your boys. And, hell, they love Hank, Matt loves Hank, it's
> all good.
>
> Anyone else agree with me? Have another nomination?
>
>
>
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 00:25:27 -0500 (CDT)
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From: "Colin Rafferty"
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu, astubbs@BayNetworks.COM
Subject: RE: please note: the The is a starting point only for
thismessage!
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:24:28 PDT
Message-ID: <19980723052429.21334.qmail@hotmail.com>

See, here's where I got my comparison:

It's that section of "The Violence of Truth:"

"God is evil, God is love."

That's a Manichean (sp?) split right there if I ever heard one!

then you've got "I ain't ever found peace with the religions of the
world," from "true happiness this way lies," and then he records "i saw
the light" (true, not _his_ song per se) not long afterwards.

I'd say Mr. Matt Johnson has been questioning his religion for quite
some time. That's one of the reasons I like the The so damn much.

Colin
khebar@hotmail.com


>>
>> i don't agree with you, but i will say that 16 horsepower is
>> an amazing band. scary dark religious music. the singer
>> truly sounds in pain, and his lyrics reflect a disgust
>> with/embracing of christianity that the the has not
>> approached. more of a nick cave comparison, i think.
>>
>> -dave.
>>


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Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:22:32 -0500 (CDT)
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From: "robert jimenez"
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: templed solace
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:21:40 PDT
Message-ID: <19980723142141.28816.qmail@hotmail.com>

in regards to the recent observations that have been inspired by the
lyrics of the The, i have a few of my own. i think that Matt is
grappling with religion and self doubt. He is also seeing the world
aruound him and what he sees makes him question humanity. i think that
he should peruse The Theory of Religion by G. Bataille, or Life Against
by Norman o. Brown.

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Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:50:14 -0500 (CDT)
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From: Lea Curry
To: Colin Rafferty
CC: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu, astubbs@BayNetworks.COM
Subject: Re: please note: the The is a starting point only for
thismessage!
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:52:46 -0700
Message-ID: <35B76A5E.F9DC6A68@sirius.com>

> 'd say Mr. Matt Johnson has been questioning his religion for quite
> some time. That's one of the reasons I like the The so damn much.
>


I would suggest that most thinking people, who are agnostic , or not
part of some formal religion DO this all their lives. I dont hear what
he's saying so much in terms of questioning "religion" as questioning
EVERYTHING, which oft includes beliefs, God, Love, humanity.

He does keep coming back to it, but doesnt everybody when they think
of what life is and why it is here? And as you get older you frame your
questions a bit differently, but ....well, I think hes just a thinkin
kind O guy, but I dont see him as struggling or really doting on
religion per SE, more as "just another western guy with desires he can
not satisfy"...... Isnt that what he keeps saying?

Lea
lea@sirius.com
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:43:37 -0500 (CDT)
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From: "Ken Maclean"
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: The Readers Digest Bataille.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:38:56 MDT
Message-ID: <19980724003857.11896.qmail@hotmail.com>

Just curious if Robert (i think it was you) could be persuaded to give
us a brief outline of what the two books he recommended contain i.e. the
message rather than the creed. If you can't be bothered that's fair
enough and if you think its going to cause mass resignations just mail
it to me off list and i'll pass it on to anyone who asks me.

As for the song "true happiness this way lies". It reminds me of a woman
i used to work with whose husband was heavily into transcendental
meditation. His logic went along the lines of to avoid pain and
suffering you had to cut off joy and pleasure as well and that what you
would be left with was a kind of numb state beyond both pleasure and
pain, which was probably the best deal he felt he could hope for i.e
"freedom from the hearts desire" . Part of this led to him starving his
wife of any love and affection which eventually lead to her having a
complete breakdown. This kind of logic doesn't really appeal to me but
there are a lot of Buddhists in the world some of whom might rank "true
happiness" as their favourite The The song.

Ken.





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From: Johann C Chacko
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: The Readers Digest Bataille.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:36:36 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID:

On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Ken Maclean wrote:

>
>This kind of logic doesn't really appeal to me but
> there are a lot of Buddhists in the world some of whom might rank "true
> happiness" as their favourite The The song.
>
> Ken.
>
>
Not true; if they're true Buddhists they neither like it nor dislike it,
and it neither their favourite nor their most hated song ;-)

Johann

>
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>

- --------
Johann C Chacko
johann@U.Arizona.EDU
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~johann
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:43:10 -0500 (CDT)
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From: Sheridan Zabel
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: [INFECTED] The list.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:29:56 -0400
Message-ID: <65B793F0016DD11196E800A0C9603436072071@FS_1>


Hi! I'm new to this list and I was wondering if there is an FAQ
anywhere on the web, etc.

Also, I just want to say that when I first heard Blue Soul Mining, I
knew what the word genius meant.

And, I am on another mailing list (non- the The) and we put the list
name in brackets in the subject to set it off from the thousands of
other emails everyone on the list gets. Has anyone tried implementing
this, or do we already have a 'code' and I'm just missing something.
------------------------------
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From: Mark_Gaertner@wbsaunders.com (Mark Gaertner)
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu, "Colin Rafferty"
Subject: Re: please note: the The is a starting point only for this
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:08:09 -0400
Message-ID: <00288280.@wbsaunders.com>

- --IMA.Boundary.747292109
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I think I have to disagree with you about 16 Horsepower and the The.
I think 16 Horsepower uses religous imagery, much to their American
Southern Gothic benefit (a la Nick Cave's Tupelo), but they hardly
deal with the philosphical (or theological) problems that Matt Johnson
deals with in most of Mind Bomb. They also do not express explicit
doubt, just darkness, while Matt is telling God "If you can't change
the world, then change yourself."

I'm hard pressed to find another group that addresses the Big
Questions the way the The does, which is why they are the best.
Perhaps Nine Inch Nails, the early stuff, in a weird way, but again,
that's more darkness. Can anyone else think of any other groups?


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: please note: the The is a starting point only for this
m
Author: "Colin Rafferty" at ~internet
Date: 7/22/98 1:20 PM


Well, then, here's my first post.

So I'm watching "Vs. the World" yesterday, and I begin to wonder if I
can think of any bands that might not sound like the The, but instead,
have lyrics or running themes that echo Mr. Johnson's work.

Here's my nominee: 16 Horsepower.

A musical 180 from the The, but if you're looking for intensely
religious lyrics obscured by a curtain of doubt, then 16 Horsepower's
your boys. And, hell, they love Hank, Matt loves Hank, it's all good.

Anyone else agree with me? Have another nomination?

And yes, I remember when this used to be about the The, but then again,
I also remember when the The put out albums.

Colin
khebar@hotmail.com

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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Subject: the The likenesses, Big Questions- a long email from jwh
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:46:49 -0700 (MST)
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> I'm hard pressed to find another group that addresses the Big
> Questions the way the The does, which is why they are the best.
> Perhaps Nine Inch Nails, the early stuff, in a weird way, but again,
> that's more darkness. Can anyone else think of any other groups?

Well, most people on this list have figured out (or should have) by now
that I'm the wrong person to ask about the The's 'Big Questions'. They're
no longer Big, just horribly cliched in a way that makes me stand with my
back up against the wall. I'm much more into the really (seemingly)
personal songs of the The. Dusk is my existential blues for the nineties,
it stikes home more poignently than Mind Bomb (for example).
Anyone can write a song and be 'deep' about it- that is to say, take
common elements of popular culture and slip grand themes into the subtext.

How do you think Dean Koontz sells a single book, let alone many? If
anyone can feign 'deep'ness, what makes Matt Johnson genuine?
Let me explore this...

So humans are thinking, iquisitive creatures. I don't think Matt raises
any points (Big Questions) in Mind Bomb that no one else had ever raised
before. It's not intellect, it's (unconfirmable) personal concerns thrust
into the popular, contextual culture. Why did Mind Bomb do so well? Why
do so many people love it so much?
Grovy music, cool lyrics and most importantly, relevance to common thought
at the time of it's release.
Matt writes the music first, then the lyrics. This is my understanding.

Wouldn't he then be impressive because he's able to write good music and
then put in relevant (deep) lyrics?

So Big Questions aren't my bag, baby. Fine, but then you might ask,
"Well, if deep shit simply is a fabrication in Mind Bomb, why can't the
personal stuff in Dusk also be a fabrication?"

Good point. Perhaps it is. The last time I checked though, personal
feelings, solitude, awareness of being alone, hatred, shame- all of these
things when applied to a specific other person (love, the illusion of
love, whatever) are always more important than politics or questions of
being.

"But Josh, (josh=jwh)" you say. "How can it be that questions such as love
are more important than those of being?"

Oh yeah, right, you're all Mother Theresas on this list! I forgot, you
think it's more noble to care about who's ass you got sqeezed out of all
those billions of years ago. Don't misunderstand me as I know some of you
will (Lea in particular), I am a religious person. I believe in God and
philosophy of Science and the importance of getting a grip on it all.

How can we pretend to not be so greedy? We all are and we cannot deny
that the jealousy in love is far greater than our search for oneness with
the universe (whatever that may be). You're only a liar if you do deny it.

If you care more about your existence than your daily life (clothes, cars,
sex, drugs, whatever your vices), then you should be involved in
Theological studies and in a Monastery somewhere. Do people who devote
their lives to relious meditation and study really listen to the The?
NFW.

Again, don't misundersand me. There's something inspiring about
self-denial in pursuit of a higher truth. Religous fervor is another
story altogether.

I should wrap this up now, since I know that this trend will last for at
least two weeks and will provide lots of fun for us all. Please be honest-
nothing is more despicable than feigning nobility when all you are is an
overweight, pimply, depressed low-life that has nothing better to do than
to argue with other people over the internet. Not that's it's not good
social interaction, just wrong to think that you're a better person for
any reason. Let's remember humility, ok?

To answer the original question:
Tori Amos, a few tracks on Boys For Pele
NIN, Pretty Hate Machine (maybe)
not much else comes to mind.

~jwh

there, now wasn't that worth it...

- --IMA.Boundary.747292109--
------------------------------
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From: "Mark Scott"
To: jwh , infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: the The likenesses, Big Questions- a long email from jwh
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:51:14 -0700
Message-Id: <19980724104724.5661abb8.in@mail.neversoft.com>


This is just a relatively short reply to JWH , as I generally agree with
what you are saying regarding feigning concern about 'big issues' etc.

I would like to think we all know why there's a difference between Matt
Johnson singing or writing about anything. His choice of words, and the
delivery, the performance. A Matt Johnson song about his personal emotional
experience places you right there - that close up microphone technique is
very intimate. The spitting heartfelt vocal delivery is the absolute polar
180 degree as black is to white, fire to ice, opposite of shallow pompous
air brushed chart fodder like e.g. Celine Dion (I regret having to subject
everyone to that name on a the The list, my apologies to one and all).

I know that is pretty obvious, but jwh is asking in part what is the
difference between Matt and anyone other singer. Matt is for real, and that
comes across in the performance. He delivers his soul in every song. (c.d.)
is fake, and that comes across in the (hystrionics) 'performance'. I
suspect she has no soul to deliver.

Regarding writing music or lyrics first, I personally have never had a
problem either way - I guess the end result would vary, but it's not really
quantifiable.

As for other singer songwriters who make you feel the experience - Francis
Dunnery. All his big issues are personal. Everyone on this list should rush
out with all their buddies right now and buy "Let's Go Do What Happens".

Cheers

Mark Scott






------------------------------
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From: Mark_Gaertner@wbsaunders.com (Mark Gaertner)
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu, jwh
Subject: An equally long response
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:32:20 -0400
Message-ID: <00288DA5.@wbsaunders.com>

- --IMA.Boundary.002503109
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That's odd, I feel refreshed... Freer, cleaner bowels, thanks to
Josh's cultural enema (it's only a joke, sheesh...).

Your points are taken, we are all greedy sods ("I say the world is
sick, you say 'Tell me what that makes us, darling"). We are all
scratching and biting, trying to deal with our desires that can't be
satisfied. We all have unhealthy dependencies on skin care products.
God bless existentialism, I'm a big fan, but it's kinda left us in a
corner. Nothing matters, it's all cliches, yet few people are willing
to take responsibility for their actions either, which is another
major point of existentialism.

I don't quite understand the argument that you're making, to be honest. You
like the personal songs (relationship songs?), but you don't like the fabricated
deepness of the other songs. But the other songs are actually "personal
concerns thrust into the popular, contextual culture." So the other songs are
personal too, with dressing. Which is why they are really good. So why are you
so violently averse to profound questions, cliched or not? Of course they're
cliched, everybody thinks about them at some point, which is why they're
cliched. You like the music. So do we all.

The personal songs are about lonliness and angst and the illusion of love
(desire). I argue that so are the religious/political songs. It's not so much
about self denial in the pursuit of higher truths, as it is a sort of egoism
where the relationship to God (or god or GOD) is of a personal concern, and the
asshole neighbor who has no concern for anyone other than himself is a
reflection of the motivation of socitey in general. Or to put it in terms of
love, maybe love or desire or desire for love is an expression of a desire to
find some kind of haven that can't be reached in society. I really think it's
all connected. Mind you, if I'm out drinking and feeling lecherous myself, I
will grant you that I'm not really concerned with the nature of God (or god or
GOD). But there is a time for everything, and sometimes the questions of being
are more important than questions of love (particularly when you're in a
somewhat functional, healthy relationship so you're not so worried about it).
After all, as the old extistential standby goes, we live alone and die alone.
Or, to quote Beth Orton "We live as we dream, alone." Although what she knows
about it all, I've no idea.

Basically, you don't gotta be a monk to wonder.

Okay, I'm going. But, for the record, I'm not overweight, nor pimply, nor THAT
depressed, and I'm on the list at work, so basically I'm getting paid to argue
about this shit.

Oh yeah, and I agree with your suggestions.

Humbly yours,

Mark

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Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:46:49 -0700 (MST)
From: jwh
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From: Lea Curry
To: jwh
CC: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: the The likenesses, Big Questions- a long email from jwh
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:03:29 -0700
Message-ID: <35B8DA81.6F8048E2@sirius.com>

jwh questions .... a bunch of stuff, and then adds:


> Oh yeah, right, you're all Mother Theresas on this list! I forgot, you
> think it's more noble to care about who's ass you got sqeezed out of all
> those billions of years ago. Don't misunderstand me as I know some of you
> will (Lea in particular), I am a religious person. I believe in God and
> philosophy of Science and the importance of getting a grip on it all.



Well, I guess if you INSIST I misunderstand you, Ill try.... (Id hate
to disappoint you), I wouldnt worry what I think , or dont think
about anything you say here if I were You , though. Im way too into my
car and whether my clothes are in style to care if I understand you or
not....

Lea

Lea
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:05:39 -0500 (CDT)
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From: Amanda Dahl/mail+schedule
To: "'jwh'" , infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: RE: the The likenesses, Big Questions- a long email from jwh
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:36:49 -0700
Message-ID: <1124E361B793CF11A28D000092912A85022A73CB@exchangebrk.barra.com>

Folks,
I was intrigued enough by jwh's post to stop lurking for a moment. I think
that in many ways, MJ would agree with a lot of what Josh has to say. JWH is
probably correct in saying that we as a species put our own little concerns
before anything on the larger scale. I wonder, though, whether this would
prove that MJ's lyrics on Dusk are actually personal. How does it differ
between "Big Questions" and 'Love Questions" when it comes to distilling
popular thought into clever phrases or cliches."If you can't change the
world change yourself", and vice versa. A good point, but also another
cliche. "Everybody knows what's going on, I don't even know what's going on
with myself". There's a paradox here that's difficult to put one's finger
on. Cliches are cliches, whether they apply to greater society or the
individual,which makes it difficult for me to let MJ's more personal
sounding love themes outweigh the "Big Questions". Dusk is no less cliche
than Mind Bomb in my opinion.

Now, I don't think that one should attach a negative connotation to the word
"cliche", after all, such phrases ring true with practically everyone for a
reason. Because of that, I think it is a skill to be able to find modern
cliches and articulate them. That is where a good part of the merit in MJ
lyrics can be found, the distiction between grander themes or (seemingly)
personal love themes aside. Not to put him on such a pedastal, but some of
his phrases hit me like wisdoms of Confuscious. Simple, distilled sentiments
that apply not just to me, but to my peers. For instance,I feel that "the
only true freedom is freedom from the heart's desires" is a common, ironic
sentiment amongst a large segment of the educated western population, though
I don't remember it being articulated anywhere else in such a simple phrase.

The only other lyricist who seems to have the skill to capture popular
sentiment of a large segment of fairly educated (young) western culture is
Morrissey. He captures the cliches of loneliness and teen angst.
For him, however, (in retrospect, ofcourse) it hits me more as a clever
marketing tool than anything. It doesn't seem to strike me as being that way
with MJ. Could it be that I feel that way only because the The never hit the
mainstream as hard as the Smiths did? Hmm..

It's never easy to tell whether a lyricists' words are from the heart or
"fabrications" of sympathetic fiction. Yes, MJ's lyrics are full of cliches,
but they are very good ones that ring true for a reason, and have become
simplistic reflections for me to use in times where it is difficult to
articulate a complicated sentiment. Not to mention all of his music simply
kicks ass.

Just my $0.02.

amanda


- -----Original Message-----
From: jwh [mailto:jwh@U.Arizona.EDU]
Sent: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:47 AM
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: the The likenesses, Big Questions- a long email from jwh


> I'm hard pressed to find another group that addresses the Big
> Questions the way the The does, which is why they are the best.
> Perhaps Nine Inch Nails, the early stuff, in a weird way, but again,
> that's more darkness. Can anyone else think of any other groups?

Well, most people on this list have figured out (or should have) by now
that I'm the wrong person to ask about the The's 'Big Questions'. They're
no longer Big, just horribly cliched in a way that makes me stand with my
back up against the wall. I'm much more into the really (seemingly)
personal songs of the The. Dusk is my existential blues for the nineties,
it stikes home more poignently than Mind Bomb (for example).
Anyone can write a song and be 'deep' about it- that is to say, take
common elements of popular culture and slip grand themes into the subtext.

How do you think Dean Koontz sells a single book, let alone many? If
anyone can feign 'deep'ness, what makes Matt Johnson genuine?
Let me explore this...

So humans are thinking, iquisitive creatures. I don't think Matt raises
any points (Big Questions) in Mind Bomb that no one else had ever raised
before. It's not intellect, it's (unconfirmable) personal concerns thrust
into the popular, contextual culture. Why did Mind Bomb do so well? Why
do so many people love it so much?
Grovy music, cool lyrics and most importantly, relevance to common thought
at the time of it's release.
Matt writes the music first, then the lyrics. This is my understanding.

Wouldn't he then be impressive because he's able to write good music and
then put in relevant (deep) lyrics?

So Big Questions aren't my bag, baby. Fine, but then you might ask,
"Well, if deep shit simply is a fabrication in Mind Bomb, why can't the
personal stuff in Dusk also be a fabrication?"

Good point. Perhaps it is. The last time I checked though, personal
feelings, solitude, awareness of being alone, hatred, shame- all of these
things when applied to a specific other person (love, the illusion of
love, whatever) are always more important than politics or questions of
being.

"But Josh, (josh=jwh)" you say. "How can it be that questions such as love
are more important than those of being?"

Oh yeah, right, you're all Mother Theresas on this list! I forgot, you
think it's more noble to care about who's ass you got sqeezed out of all
those billions of years ago. Don't misunderstand me as I know some of you
will (Lea in particular), I am a religious person. I believe in God and
philosophy of Science and the importance of getting a grip on it all.

How can we pretend to not be so greedy? We all are and we cannot deny
that the jealousy in love is far greater than our search for oneness with
the universe (whatever that may be). You're only a liar if you do deny it.

If you care more about your existence than your daily life (clothes, cars,
sex, drugs, whatever your vices), then you should be involved in
Theological studies and in a Monastery somewhere. Do people who devote
their lives to relious meditation and study really listen to the The?
NFW.

Again, don't misundersand me. There's something inspiring about
self-denial in pursuit of a higher truth. Religous fervor is another
story altogether.

I should wrap this up now, since I know that this trend will last for at
least two weeks and will provide lots of fun for us all. Please be honest-
nothing is more despicable than feigning nobility when all you are is an
overweight, pimply, depressed low-life that has nothing better to do than
to argue with other people over the internet. Not that's it's not good
social interaction, just wrong to think that you're a better person for
any reason. Let's remember humility, ok?

To answer the original question:
Tori Amos, a few tracks on Boys For Pele
NIN, Pretty Hate Machine (maybe)
not much else comes to mind.

~jwh

there, now wasn't that worth it...
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:04:30 -0500 (CDT)
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From: "Ken Maclean"
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: evolutionary selection pressure against true Buddhists.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:12:27 MDT
Message-ID: <19980725021228.16280.qmail@hotmail.com>

Further to


This kind of logic doesn't really appeal to me but
> there are a lot of Buddhists in the world some of whom might rank
"true
> happiness" as their favourite The The song.
>
> Ken.
>
>Followed by

Not true; if they're true Buddhists they neither like it nor dislike
it,
and it neither their favourite nor their most hated song ;-)

Johann

Very true and i was having a good laugh about this untill i realized it
was keeping me from Nirvana.

However as there are millions of reproducing Buddhists around i can
only assume that they are not averse to a little pleasure. Ever tried
having sex without feeling any pleasure ? (Sorry ladies i'm speaking
man to man here as short of an electrode on the prostrate, our equipment
will not cooperate unless its pleasurable, so please no tales of
previous disappointments.)

Ken

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:04:16 -0500 (CDT)
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From: "Ken Maclean"
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: The dillema of the 90s: Big questions or a big gulp.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:00:03 MDT
Message-ID: <19980725030004.21452.qmail@hotmail.com>

Like you Josh i dont think the answers to many of life's questions are
to be found in Mj's lyrics and also like you i have commented on this
before, saying that its the clarity of expression that i admire. It
could also be argued that writing soley about how you feel is rooted in
narcissicism and is a kind of cowards way out because nothing is on the
line. Who can tell you that you are wrong when you describe how you feel
? Only you really know for absolute certain what is going on in your
head. Venture a public opinion on something controversial that other
people can have an opinion on and you are taking a chance. Try and get
an opinion out of Richard Kraijeck (sp?) on the state of womens tennis
now or ask George Bush for lip reading lessons.

However i do love a testable hypothesis, which is why i am drawn to the
bit below that you wrote.

Anyone can write a song and be 'deep' about it- that is to say, take
common elements of popular culture and slip grand themes into the
subtext.

Oh yeah ? Go on then,no need for the music, just the words will do. and
we'll let you know how it compares to armageddon days or heartland. I'm
serious, if its so easy show me (and i'm not even from Missouri).

Perhaps the meaning of life is what people ponder when they have
enough to eat, clothes on their back and love in their lives and then
begin to wonder is that all there is. Maybe politics crops up when they
are denied the former and wonder why. I'm in the former which is why i
dont mind listening to people having a stab at it to a catchy tune.
Believe me i am not posturing when i say that i'm not that bothered
about cars and that 300 new varieties of shit that i dont need,
regardless of the discount,really doesnt make my neurons fire. Actually
i notice that you and Johann are both e-mailing from the U of Arizona.
Have you guys met ? If not perhaps you should and Johann can tell us of
your capacity for nobility assesed by your weight, complexion and
general mood.


Thanks for the mail though, your stuff is always fun and i know you are
just loking to provoke a response.


Yours seeking the grail whilst wondering if i paid too much for my
armour and does it makes me look fat.

Ken.





______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:16:43 -0500 (CDT)
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Resent-Sender: infected-request@cs.uchicago.edu
From: Johann C Chacko
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: evolutionary selection pressure against true Buddhists.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:16:19 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID:

On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Ken Maclean wrote:


> However as there are millions of reproducing Buddhists around i can
> only assume that they are not averse to a little pleasure. Ever tried
> having sex without feeling any pleasure ? (Sorry ladies i'm speaking
> man to man here as short of an electrode on the prostrate, our equipment
> will not cooperate unless its pleasurable, so please no tales of
> previous disappointments.)
>
> Ken


Perhaps rather than feel bad about feeling good and get the
Karma Police police on them again, they just try their level hardest to
ignore the annoying persistance of pleasure and soldier
on...periodically remembering not to feel good about that either.

Internal monologue of a true Buddhist during orgasm
" yes, yes, yes!- well glad that's over.
well not *glad* per se, just releived.
not that being releived in itself is a good thing...
oh bugger there's a hole in the condom"

______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>

- --------
Johann C Chacko
johann@U.Arizona.EDU
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~johann
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:32:11 -0500 (CDT)
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Resent-From: infected@cs.uchicago.edu
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From: Johann C Chacko
To: Mark Scott
cc: jwh , infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: the The likenesses, Big Questions- a long email from jwh
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:31:44 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID:


Why or rather how do we know that that the The is the real things- the
same way that we can distinquish between hack authors and true genius. Now
mind you the hack has talent too...all that differs are his
motivations.The hack writes because he needs to make a living and because
he knows that he can do a fairly decent job at putting out stuff that
people will like and buy. Well the true artist doesn't give a fig
about what other people like, and fairly good doesn't cut it. (S)he writes
(and as we know Matt considers himself a songwriter first) because he's
got this story, this emotion, this tone, this *feeling* that consumes him
and drives him to distraction; the only release can be obtained by putting
it down, by making it *real*, like this itch you have to tear at until it
bleeds, but you have to get it right and it haunts you night and day until
it's perfect. And then you have peace for a while until something else pos
up.It's that angslan, that mental pain, pleasure and pressure of a never
quiescent mind that demands to express itself that he's writes and sings
about when talks of wanting to shut his brain down. Matt Johnson writes
because he has to,to keep himself sane and beacause it's the single most
satisfying thing he can do. Those lines are crafted to bring satisfaction
to one person...him.
The rest- the deep issues, the emotional connection people feel, the
albums he sells- those are byproducts of the talent that drives him. They
are the origin and the means, not the end.

Regards,
Johann
p.s.- all of these ascribed motivations apply solely to my Matt Johnson-
other models may vary from unit to unit.
- --------
Johann C Chacko
johann@U.Arizona.EDU
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~johann
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 12:12:01 -0500 (CDT)
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From: Nat Light
To: "INFECTED (E-mail)"
Subject: RE: the The likenesses, Big Questions- a long email from jwh
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 13:10:05 -0400
Message-ID: <01BDB896.B5C90FE0.NatLight@worldnet.att.net>

Excellent choice of words!


Ne Obliviscaris,

"Devo" ---> mailto:NatLight@worldnet.att.net




- -----Original Message-----
From: Johann C Chacko [SMTP:johann@U.Arizona.EDU]
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 1998 1:32 AM
To: Mark Scott
Cc: jwh; infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: the The likenesses, Big Questions- a long email from jwh


Why or rather how do we know that that the The is the real things- the
same way that we can distinquish between hack authors and true genius. Now
mind you the hack has talent too...all that differs are his
motivations.The hack writes because he needs to make a living and because
he knows that he can do a fairly decent job at putting out stuff that
people will like and buy. Well the true artist doesn't give a fig
about what other people like, and fairly good doesn't cut it. (S)he writes
(and as we know Matt considers himself a songwriter first) because he's
got this story, this emotion, this tone, this *feeling* that consumes him
and drives him to distraction; the only release can be obtained by putting
it down, by making it *real*, like this itch you have to tear at until it
bleeds, but you have to get it right and it haunts you night and day until
it's perfect. And then you have peace for a while until something else pos
up.It's that angslan, that mental pain, pleasure and pressure of a never
quiescent mind that demands to express itself that he's writes and sings
about when talks of wanting to shut his brain down. Matt Johnson writes
because he has to,to keep himself sane and beacause it's the single most
satisfying thing he can do. Those lines are crafted to bring satisfaction
to one person...him.
The rest- the deep issues, the emotional connection people feel, the
albums he sells- those are byproducts of the talent that drives him. They
are the origin and the means, not the end.

Regards,
Johann
p.s.- all of these ascribed motivations apply solely to my Matt Johnson-
other models may vary from unit to unit.
- --------
Johann C Chacko
johann@U.Arizona.EDU
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~johann
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 18:08:42 -0500 (CDT)
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From: jwh
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Response-Response
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 16:08:02 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID:

This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
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On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Mark Gaertner wrote:

> That's odd, I feel refreshed... Freer, cleaner bowels, thanks to
> Josh's cultural enema (it's only a joke, sheesh...).
Actually, very funny. My brand of humor. I'm still chuckling.

> I don't quite understand the argument that you're making, to be honest. You
> like the personal songs (relationship songs?), but you don't like the fabricated
> deepness of the other songs.
Actually, I admitted that you could question either type of song. I can't
prove that any the The song is genuine but I wholeheartedly belive one,
"Lung Shadows".
But only for vastly personal reasons that lead me to feel exactly as what
I perceive the song to be. Perhaps I've fooled myself into thinking so,
but I doubt it. The relationshipsongs seem to be more mature and
thought-out and powerful, but maybe only for me. Are they hogwash?
Only MJ knows...

> Which is why they (personal songs) are really good. So why are you
> so violently averse to profound questions, cliched or not? Of course they're
> cliched, everybody thinks about them at some point, which is why they're
> cliched.
I'm just asking everyone to come to the conclusion of 'greatness' on their
own. We all swallow anything tv hands us, the news is always true
nowadays. I'm not adverse to the use of any cliche (or stereotype within
reason- let's leave it at that please) for exploring deep questions. It's
just that it seems so much more contrived than using cliches to explore
personal questions due to the selfish nature of man. Perhaps it is more
effective to get across a political message using cliches, but with so
much personal connection of my own to Dusk tracks, I find it hard to
swallow most of Mind Bomb (I still like the music).

> But there is a time for everything, and sometimes the questions of being
> are more important than questions of love (particularly when you're in a
> somewhat functional, healthy relationship so you're not so worried about it).
> After all, as the old extistential standby goes, we live alone and die alone.
> Or, to quote Beth Orton "We live as we dream, alone." Although what she knows
> about it all, I've no idea.
Great point. I guess there is a certain satisfaction in security of your
personal beliefs. But again, you said that you'd basically have to be a
Monk to wonder- and none of us are Monks...

~jwh

- --IMA.Boundary.002503109--
------------------------------
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From: jwh
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Saving Private Ryan
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 16:10:26 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID:

Great movie, don't bring kids to it though.

One scene, an American soldier is walking through a field in Nazi occupied
France and singing "Solitude" to himself.

Wierd how that jumped out at me and pulled me right out of the movie
experience. You don't see that kind of thing eveyday.

~jwh
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 18:53:12 -0500 (CDT)
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From: "Mark Scott"
To: jwh , infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: Saving Private Ryan
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 16:58:24 -0700
Message-Id: <19980726165432.044b7365.in@mail.neversoft.com>


hmm, surely that's an anachronism!!!!

>One scene, an American soldier is walking through a field in Nazi occupied
>France and singing "Solitude" to himself.
see that kind of thing eveyday.
>
>~jwh
>
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:10:18 -0500 (CDT)
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From: "Mark Scott"
To: jwh , infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: Response-Response
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 17:15:29 -0700
Message-Id: <19980726171138.045b193e.in@mail.neversoft.com>

At 04:08 PM 7/26/98 -0700, jwh wrote:
Perhaps it is more
>effective to get across a political message using cliches, but with so
>much personal connection of my own to Dusk tracks, I find it hard to
>swallow most of Mind Bomb (I still like the music).


I don't think he does use cliches that much on Mind Bomb, on the more'
political' songs. I think he makes the issues fresh by bringing
'theThe-ness' to them. The words are entirely his own, he borrows from no
one.

For me Mind Bomb is deeply personal (although I consider Dusk to be CD two
of a Mind Bomb/Dusk double). I was unempoyed with a tiny child in the late
eighties, and struggling to survive in Thatcherland, so despite the
commercial success of 'Beaten Generation', a lot of people identified with
the words in that song. For greedy selfish people, Thatcher's Britain was
heaven on Earth, but for those less gifted at bullshit and less
opportunistic, it was truly terrible. Mind Bomb was perfectly placed for
people in my situation. I identified with Beaten Generation and
consequently bought Mind Bomb, and found a kindred spirit in those words
and that music.

Every song on that album connects with my life, my political beliefs and my
attitude towards religion. Commercial success (or at least realtive
commercial success for Matt Johnson) does not automatically mean the music
is bad. If Infested or Soul Mining had been giant commercial successes, I
wonder if those would be considered the 'poor relations amongst the Matt
albums...

I feel that Beyond Love is one of the most heartfelt passionate and
beautiful songs ever written. It feels like a part of me, to the extent
that I played it to a female friend once who described it as 'shit', and I
was unable to have anything to do with her for a while (guess I've opened
the door for lots of 'Beyond Love is shit' e mails now!). Fortunately I let
that kind of thing go these days.

Sorry for blabbering on.

Cheers

Mark Scott
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:33:23 -0500 (CDT)
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From: "terri hannigan"
To:
Subject: Re: the The likenesses, Big Questions- a long email from jwh
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 01:40:12 -0400
Message-ID: <001e01bdb921$0a620fe0$e70b2399@xpowjjkf>

OK.....venturing meekly out with an opinion....

It always seems curious to me that a lot of the posts on matt's music are so
very centered on lyrics...and so little on the sounds.

Music grabs ppl for different reasons and in many different
ways.......
More often than not, MY ears will hear a great sound, beat, rhythm
or groove that will grab me....and it is this that will create emotions
within myself. It has ALWAYS been the sounds that an artist creates that
makes him most special to me, and sometimes it is even an artist's
voice in itself that is the instrument which draws me. .
Then there are those rare extrordinary finds in which while ~grooving~
to the sound you discover insightful lyrics that affect you also. This is
why I love "the
The"......the sounds that were created to match the lyrics in so many songs
I find just amazing....how matt has created the darkness & aura of certain
sounds
to match the lyrics.
But if you only focus on the lyrics...then you r discussing a poet, or a
writer....Matt Johnson is a songwriter......the lyrics are not a song
without the music and to me it is the ability to merge
the two and to do it so well which impresses ME so much...as someone had
said earlier..it may not be that difficult a task to write a *deep* song,
but I do think it is difficult & special to be able to create unique sounds
as moving as the
words that accompany them.
..... ..and before I retreat back into my corner, two more short comments
please....I
would just like to second Mark's feelings that every single person on this
list should go buy Francis Dunnery's disc.."lets go do what happens"....talk
about great songwriting.....and a kick-arse gee-tar player to boot !!!
Just one of those discs that sound better every time you hear it, and to me
so insightful.
Secondly....heard a new "soul coughing" song the other day called
"circles"......new disc will be out in a few months and from the small
sampling I heard ...will be another one to add to the holiday list :))

Just my little .02....






------------------------------
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 01:32:12 -0500 (CDT)
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From: ziggy nix
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: artistic roles
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 02:52:25 -0400
Message-ID: <35BC23A9.B71A4CCA@wilmington.net>


- --------------9755FA6E9F3825D8B66D01AE
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> Why or rather how do we know that that the The is the real things- the
> same way that we can distinquish between hack authors and true genius. Now
> mind you the hack has talent too...all that differs are his
> motivations.The hack writes because he needs to make a living and because
> he knows that he can do a fairly decent job at putting out stuff that
> people will like and buy. Well the true artist doesn't give a fig
> about what other people like, and fairly good doesn't cut it.
>
okay, here's a question to bat around:
If a hack writer (artist) produces "art" to make a living what
truely separates
him from a "true artist"? if a true artist doesn't care about "what
other people
like" then why do they exhibit their art in a public forum, why would
they attempt
to be on an international recording label? what about the hack that
produces a public
consumable art so they can finance their own ambitions?

anyway, just wanted to throw a little banter into the discussion.
ciao kiddos,
ziggy nix

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Coffeehouse/3183/index.html

- --------------9755FA6E9F3825D8B66D01AE
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  Why or rather how do we know that that the The is the real things- the

same way that we can distinquish between hack authors and true genius. Now

mind you the hack has talent too...all that differs are his

motivations.The hack writes because he needs to make a living and because

he knows that he can do a fairly decent job at putting  out stuff that

people will like and buy.  Well the true artist doesn't give a fig

about what other people like, and fairly good doesn't cut it.

anyway, just wanted to throw a little banter into the discussion.

ciao kiddos,

ziggy nix

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Coffeehouse/3183/index.html

- --------------9755FA6E9F3825D8B66D01AE--
------------------------------
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From: jwh
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: artistic roles
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:52:40 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID:

This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
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> okay, here's a question to bat around:
> If a hack writer (artist) produces "art" to make a living what
> truely separates him from a "true artist"?
I can't answer that. I'mnot one to judge how someone takes advantage of
their talents- unless they are being immoral.

> if a true artist doesn't care about "what other people like" then why do
> they exhibit their art in a public forum, why would they attempt to be
> on an international recording label?
How can one be an artist without expression?
Besides, food has to come from somewhere...

> what about the hack that produces a public consumable art so they can
>finance their own ambitions?
Ever hear of tasteless people?
There's a sucker born every minute.- P.T. Barnum
So if someone wants to pay me for hardly exerting myself and I can get fat
off of it, I'll be a hack too.

~jwh

- --------------9755FA6E9F3825D8B66D01AE--
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:57:37 -0500 (CDT)
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From: Johann C Chacko
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: artistic roles
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:57:15 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID:

On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, ziggy nix wrote:

>
> okay, here's a question to bat around:
> If a hack writer (artist) produces "art" to make a living what
> truely separates
> him from a "true artist"? if a true artist doesn't care about "what
> other people
> like" then why do they exhibit their art in a public forum, why would
> they attempt

The true artist doesn't design a product to please other people, however
once you create something that you're pleased with, and that brings you
pleasure, whats the next logical step...share it with everyone else.

> to be on an international recording label? what about the hack that
> produces a public
> consumable art so they can finance their own ambitions?

That happens far more often in literature than in music...the
novelised Star Trek and Star Wars series are a monument to that. In any
case I have real sympathy for those people. At least they're trying.


Regards,
Johann

- --------
Johann C Chacko
johann@U.Arizona.EDU
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~johann
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:13:23 -0500 (CDT)
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From: "Mark Scott"
To: "Infected (E-mail)"
Subject: AtheTheist
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:18:08 -0700
Message-Id: <19980727151425.091657fb.in@mail.neversoft.com>


'AtheTheist' -someone who doesn't believe in the The. Denies all evidence,
despite the numerous followers and images, and the recordings people claim
to be of the Mattssiah himself.

'AgMattstic' - may or may not believe in theThe, depending upon the
evidence available. At present I am becoming more agmattstic. I'll believe
when I see and hear a new album. We demand proof!

'the FaithTheful' - believe in the The no matter what - even if he had
never made an album or shown his face. We have no proof he exists, other
than ancient compact discs, and bootleg tapes, which have become so
distorted and worn, we really cannot know for sure that they are genuine.
And yet we believe steadfastly that he shall return with a fine and
controversial album. We are the The FaitheTheful.
>
>
>
>At 08:22 PM 7/26/98 -0400, Nat Light wrote:
>>'theThe-ness' ... Word For The Day! I like it.
>>
>>Devo
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Mark Scott [SMTP:Mark@neversoft.com]
>>Sent: Sunday, July 26, 1998 8:15 PM
>>To: jwh; infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
>>Subject: Re: Response-Response
>>
>>At 04:08 PM 7/26/98 -0700, jwh wrote:
>> Perhaps it is more
>>>effective to get across a political message using cliches, but with so
>>>much personal connection of my own to Dusk tracks, I find it hard to
>>>swallow most of Mind Bomb (I still like the music).
>>
>>
>>I don't think he does use cliches that much on Mind Bomb, on the more'
>>political' songs. I think he makes the issues fresh by bringing
>>'theThe-ness' to them. The words are entirely his own, he borrows from no
>>one.
>>
>>For me Mind Bomb is deeply personal (although I consider Dusk to be CD two
>>of a Mind Bomb/Dusk double). I was unempoyed with a tiny child in the late
>>eighties, and struggling to survive in Thatcherland, so despite the
>>commercial success of 'Beaten Generation', a lot of people identified with
>>the words in that song. For greedy selfish people, Thatcher's Britain was
>>heaven on Earth, but for those less gifted at bullshit and less
>>opportunistic, it was truly terrible. Mind Bomb was perfectly placed for
>>people in my situation. I identified with Beaten Generation and
>>consequently bought Mind Bomb, and found a kindred spirit in those words
>>and that music.
>>
>>Every song on that album connects with my life, my political beliefs and my
>>attitude towards religion. Commercial success (or at least realtive
>>commercial success for Matt Johnson) does not automatically mean the music
>>is bad. If Infested or Soul Mining had been giant commercial successes, I
>>wonder if those would be considered the 'poor relations amongst the Matt
>>albums...
>>
>>I feel that Beyond Love is one of the most heartfelt passionate and
>>beautiful songs ever written. It feels like a part of me, to the extent
>>that I played it to a female friend once who described it as 'shit', and I
>>was unable to have anything to do with her for a while (guess I've opened
>>the door for lots of 'Beyond Love is shit' e mails now!). Fortunately I let

>>that kind of thing go these days.
>>
>>Sorry for blabbering on.
>>
>>Cheers
>>
>>Mark Scott
>>
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:15:46 -0500 (CDT)
Resent-Message-ID: <"MD9BC.A.crD.wYSv1"@purpletape>
Resent-From: infected@cs.uchicago.edu
Resent-Sender: infected-request@cs.uchicago.edu
From: Nat Light
To: "INFECTED (E-mail)"
Subject: RE: AtheTheist
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:13:57 -0400
Message-ID: <01BDB9A3.785E5DA0.NatLight@worldnet.att.net>

And he scores again! Mr. Scott is on a roll!

Devo

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mark Scott [SMTP:Mark@neversoft.com]
Sent: Monday, July 27, 1998 6:18 PM
To: Infected (E-mail)
Subject: AtheTheist


'AtheTheist' -someone who doesn't believe in the The. Denies all evidence,
despite the numerous followers and images, and the recordings people claim
to be of the Mattssiah himself.

'AgMattstic' - may or may not believe in theThe, depending upon the
evidence available. At present I am becoming more agmattstic. I'll believe
when I see and hear a new album. We demand proof!

'the FaithTheful' - believe in the The no matter what - even if he had
never made an album or shown his face. We have no proof he exists, other
than ancient compact discs, and bootleg tapes, which have become so
distorted and worn, we really cannot know for sure that they are genuine.
And yet we believe steadfastly that he shall return with a fine and
controversial album. We are the The FaitheTheful.
>
>
>
>At 08:22 PM 7/26/98 -0400, Nat Light wrote:
>>'theThe-ness' ... Word For The Day! I like it.
>>
>>Devo
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Mark Scott [SMTP:Mark@neversoft.com]
>>Sent: Sunday, July 26, 1998 8:15 PM
>>To: jwh; infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
>>Subject: Re: Response-Response
>>
>>At 04:08 PM 7/26/98 -0700, jwh wrote:
>> Perhaps it is more
>>>effective to get across a political message using cliches, but with so
>>>much personal connection of my own to Dusk tracks, I find it hard to
>>>swallow most of Mind Bomb (I still like the music).
>>
>>
>>I don't think he does use cliches that much on Mind Bomb, on the more'
>>political' songs. I think he makes the issues fresh by bringing
>>'theThe-ness' to them. The words are entirely his own, he borrows from no
>>one.
>>
>>For me Mind Bomb is deeply personal (although I consider Dusk to be CD two
>>of a Mind Bomb/Dusk double). I was unempoyed with a tiny child in the late
>>eighties, and struggling to survive in Thatcherland, so despite the
>>commercial success of 'Beaten Generation', a lot of people identified with
>>the words in that song. For greedy selfish people, Thatcher's Britain was
>>heaven on Earth, but for those less gifted at bullshit and less
>>opportunistic, it was truly terrible. Mind Bomb was perfectly placed for
>>people in my situation. I identified with Beaten Generation and
>>consequently bought Mind Bomb, and found a kindred spirit in those words
>>and that music.
>>
>>Every song on that album connects with my life, my political beliefs and my
>>attitude towards religion. Commercial success (or at least realtive
>>commercial success for Matt Johnson) does not automatically mean the music
>>is bad. If Infested or Soul Mining had been giant commercial successes, I
>>wonder if those would be considered the 'poor relations amongst the Matt
>>albums...
>>
>>I feel that Beyond Love is one of the most heartfelt passionate and
>>beautiful songs ever written. It feels like a part of me, to the extent
>>that I played it to a female friend once who described it as 'shit', and I
>>was unable to have anything to do with her for a while (guess I've opened
>>the door for lots of 'Beyond Love is shit' e mails now!). Fortunately I let

>>that kind of thing go these days.
>>
>>Sorry for blabbering on.
>>
>>Cheers
>>
>>Mark Scott
>>
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:40:47 -0500 (CDT)
Resent-Message-ID: <"0ZozbB.A.juD.LwSv1"@purpletape>
Resent-From: infected@cs.uchicago.edu
Resent-Sender: infected-request@cs.uchicago.edu
From: "Mark Scott"
To: Nat Light ,
"INFECTED (E-mail)"
Subject: RE: AtheTheist
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:45:46 -0700
Message-Id: <19980727184218.09d4afbf.in@mail.neversoft.com>


then of course there' the 'Tooting Shroud'.

Many people believe the impression of a hairless human being imprinted upon
this revered army surplus item to be a forgery, painted by a clever artist
in the 13th century. Others
believe it is a sleeping bag Matt was using, and the image was created as a
giant burst of creative energy was released as a song idea came to him
during the night (In Tooting, a suburb of London).

Mark Scott



At 09:13 PM 7/27/98 -0400, Nat Light wrote:
>And he scores again! Mr. Scott is on a roll!
>
>Devo
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mark Scott [SMTP:Mark@neversoft.com]
>Sent: Monday, July 27, 1998 6:18 PM
>To: Infected (E-mail)
>Subject: AtheTheist
>
>
>'AtheTheist' -someone who doesn't believe in the The. Denies all evidence,
>despite the numerous followers and images, and the recordings people claim
>to be of the Mattssiah himself.
>
>'AgMattstic' - may or may not believe in theThe, depending upon the
>evidence available. At present I am becoming more agmattstic. I'll believe
>when I see and hear a new album. We demand proof!
>
>'the FaithTheful' - believe in the The no matter what - even if he had
>never made an album or shown his face. We have no proof he exists, other
>than ancient compact discs, and bootleg tapes, which have become so
>distorted and worn, we really cannot know for sure that they are genuine.
>And yet we believe steadfastly that he shall return with a fine and
>controversial album. We are the The FaitheTheful.
>>
>>
>>
>>At 08:22 PM 7/26/98 -0400, Nat Light wrote:
>>>'theThe-ness' ... Word For The Day! I like it.
>>>
>>>Devo
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Mark Scott [SMTP:Mark@neversoft.com]
>>>Sent: Sunday, July 26, 1998 8:15 PM
>>>To: jwh; infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
>>>Subject: Re: Response-Response
>>>
>>>At 04:08 PM 7/26/98 -0700, jwh wrote:
>>> Perhaps it is more
>>>>effective to get across a political message using cliches, but with so
>>>>much personal connection of my own to Dusk tracks, I find it hard to
>>>>swallow most of Mind Bomb (I still like the music).
>>>
>>>
>>>I don't think he does use cliches that much on Mind Bomb, on the more'
>>>political' songs. I think he makes the issues fresh by bringing
>>>'theThe-ness' to them. The words are entirely his own, he borrows from no
>>>one.
>>>
>>>For me Mind Bomb is deeply personal (although I consider Dusk to be CD two
>>>of a Mind Bomb/Dusk double). I was unempoyed with a tiny child in the late
>>>eighties, and struggling to survive in Thatcherland, so despite the
>>>commercial success of 'Beaten Generation', a lot of people identified with
>>>the words in that song. For greedy selfish people, Thatcher's Britain was
>>>heaven on Earth, but for those less gifted at bullshit and less
>>>opportunistic, it was truly terrible. Mind Bomb was perfectly placed for
>>>people in my situation. I identified with Beaten Generation and
>>>consequently bought Mind Bomb, and found a kindred spirit in those words
>>>and that music.
>>>
>>>Every song on that album connects with my life, my political beliefs and my
>>>attitude towards religion. Commercial success (or at least realtive
>>>commercial success for Matt Johnson) does not automatically mean the music
>>>is bad. If Infested or Soul Mining had been giant commercial successes, I
>>>wonder if those would be considered the 'poor relations amongst the Matt
>>>albums...
>>>
>>>I feel that Beyond Love is one of the most heartfelt passionate and
>>>beautiful songs ever written. It feels like a part of me, to the extent
>>>that I played it to a female friend once who described it as 'shit', and I

>>>was unable to have anything to do with her for a while (guess I've opened
>>>the door for lots of 'Beyond Love is shit' e mails now!). Fortunately I let
>
>>>that kind of thing go these days.
>>>
>>>Sorry for blabbering on.
>>>
>>>Cheers
>>>
>>>Mark Scott
>>>
>
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 03:14:52 -0500 (CDT)
Resent-Message-ID: <"K4-v6.A.3_D.phYv1"@purpletape>
Resent-From: infected@cs.uchicago.edu
Resent-Sender: infected-request@cs.uchicago.edu
From: "Daniel O'Rourke"
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: AtheTheist
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:14:20 +0100 (BST)
Message-ID:

Great post, infact amusing enough to de-lurk me. I have a few bootlegs if
anyone fancies a copy.

Brixton (London) 2/10/89 the first 'gig' I ever went to.
Town and Country Club (London) 3/10/89 the Second 'gig' I ever went to.
Royal Albert Hall (London) 10/July 90 (this is part of the Verses the world
video I think. (Not the 3rd gig I ever went to).

I think I also have the Cambridge Junction somewhere, this was a warm up to
the Dusk tour and possibly the most star struck night of my life.

I'll gladly run anyone a copy, if you send me a tape or a couple of quid for
a tape and postage..

feel free to mail me off list

Cheers

Dan


On Mon 27 Jul, Mark Scott wrote:
>
> 'AtheTheist' -someone who doesn't believe in the The. Denies all evidence,
> despite the numerous followers and images, and the recordings people claim
> to be of the Mattssiah himself.
>
> 'AgMattstic' - may or may not believe in theThe, depending upon the
> evidence available. At present I am becoming more agmattstic. I'll believe
> when I see and hear a new album. We demand proof!
>
> 'the FaithTheful' - believe in the The no matter what - even if he had
> never made an album or shown his face. We have no proof he exists, other
> than ancient compact discs, and bootleg tapes, which have become so
> distorted and worn, we really cannot know for sure that they are genuine.
> And yet we believe steadfastly that he shall return with a fine and
> controversial album. We are the The FaitheTheful.
> >
> >
> >
> >At 08:22 PM 7/26/98 -0400, Nat Light wrote:
> >>'theThe-ness' ... Word For The Day! I like it.
> >>
> >>Devo
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Mark Scott [SMTP:Mark@neversoft.com]
> >>Sent: Sunday, July 26, 1998 8:15 PM
> >>To: jwh; infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
> >>Subject: Re: Response-Response
> >>
> >>At 04:08 PM 7/26/98 -0700, jwh wrote:
> >> Perhaps it is more
> >>>effective to get across a political message using cliches, but with so
> >>>much personal connection of my own to Dusk tracks, I find it hard to
> >>>swallow most of Mind Bomb (I still like the music).
> >>
> >>
> >>I don't think he does use cliches that much on Mind Bomb, on the more'
> >>political' songs. I think he makes the issues fresh by bringing
> >>'theThe-ness' to them. The words are entirely his own, he borrows from no
> >>one.
> >>
> >>For me Mind Bomb is deeply personal (although I consider Dusk to be CD two
> >>of a Mind Bomb/Dusk double). I was unempoyed with a tiny child in the late
> >>eighties, and struggling to survive in Thatcherland, so despite the
> >>commercial success of 'Beaten Generation', a lot of people identified with
> >>the words in that song. For greedy selfish people, Thatcher's Britain was
> >>heaven on Earth, but for those less gifted at bullshit and less
> >>opportunistic, it was truly terrible. Mind Bomb was perfectly placed for
> >>people in my situation. I identified with Beaten Generation and
> >>consequently bought Mind Bomb, and found a kindred spirit in those words
> >>and that music.
> >>
> >>Every song on that album connects with my life, my political beliefs and my
> >>attitude towards religion. Commercial success (or at least realtive
> >>commercial success for Matt Johnson) does not automatically mean the music
> >>is bad. If Infested or Soul Mining had been giant commercial successes, I
> >>wonder if those would be considered the 'poor relations amongst the Matt
> >>albums...
> >>
> >>I feel that Beyond Love is one of the most heartfelt passionate and
> >>beautiful songs ever written. It feels like a part of me, to the extent
> >>that I played it to a female friend once who described it as 'shit', and I
> >>was unable to have anything to do with her for a while (guess I've opened
> >>the door for lots of 'Beyond Love is shit' e mails now!). Fortunately I let
>
> >>that kind of thing go these days.
> >>
> >>Sorry for blabbering on.
> >>
> >>Cheers
> >>
> >>Mark Scott
> >>
>

Daniel

- --
Daniel O'Rourke, Communication and Services Group
Acorn Computers Ltd Tel: +44 (0) 1223 725059
Acorn House, 645 Newmarket Road Fax: +44 (0) 1223 725159
Cambridge, CB5 8PB, United Kingdom WWW: http://www.acorn.com
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:04:13 -0500 (CDT)
Resent-Message-ID: <"P6du_.A.OJ.lpkv1"@purpletape>
Resent-From: infected@cs.uchicago.edu
Resent-Sender: infected-request@cs.uchicago.edu
From: jwh
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Rare/People of Denmark ?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:35:30 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID:

Well, hello there people.

Just out of sheer idle boredom, I was wondering what each of you would put
on a CD if you had your choice of the The tracks?

P.O.D. for one would be my guess, another guess whould be tracks such as
Black & White and Contorverisal Subject, things like What Stanley Saw,
Untitled, Lip Tripping, stuff like that, huh?

I wonder what it would be like if you could get one, two or even three
CD's with evey the The Track not on an LP. Think of it- all the remixes
and b-sides, all the hard to get stuff on one CD. I'm drooling, sorry.

What would anyone want on it? Is anyone truly content to say that they ave
every the The track apart from Gun Sluts and Matt's Demo Tape?

Just a thought- email me off the list with some ideas if you follow me...
~jwh

P.S.- Quincy, if you're out there, give me a sign!
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:04:05 -0500 (CDT)
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Resent-From: infected@cs.uchicago.edu
Resent-Sender: infected-request@cs.uchicago.edu
From: "Jennifer MacFarlane"
To: jwh , infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: artistic roles (and much more)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:35:50 -0600
Message-ID: <35BE0BF6.D0552C5D@smednet.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --------------351A0284503EAAE8092AEF25
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Woah - this whole weird conversation opens up way too many questions. I love
this list and everything, and it's really cool to be able to hear all these
conversations going on, but I'm goin' nuts here... Plus I've got some time
here at work where nothin' much is going on, and I just feel like ranting a
bit.

> > If a hack writer (artist) produces "art" to make a living what
> > truely separates him from a "true artist"?
> I can't answer that. I'mnot one to judge how someone takes advantage of
> their talents- unless they are being immoral.

Too bad there's no indicator for sarcasm on this net thing. I can't tell if
jwh is kidding when he says "unless they are being immoral". If he is, heh
heh. If he isn't, then woah, that's terrible. Not that I want to "judge"
him... but it is. Not that he's terrible, but that judging stuff - who can
judge??? I dunno....

> > if a true artist doesn't care about "what other people like" then why do
> > they exhibit their art in a public forum, why would they attempt to be
> > on an international recording label?
> How can one be an artist without expression?
> Besides, food has to come from somewhere...

That's like saying "if a tree falls in the forest, and no one's around, it
doesn't make a sound. Art is still art whether anyone sees it or not. I have
some rather impressive pencil sketches (well, I like 'em) that I've done and
never shown to anyone. I'm not sure if exhibiting them would make me a hack,
and I don't give a rat's ass about how other people see them, but I still
think they're art. Or artistic-type-stuff, anyway. I'm not an art major or
anything. If I sold one for money, realized I could get away with doing that
instead of working in a box, and decided to take that option in life, would
that make me a hack? Is Matt a hack because he writes songs that are catchy?
Heck, that Beaten Generation was pretty hip at the time. People were hummin'
that every once in a while, and how do we know this isn't just stuff he writes
because he thinks other people will like it? Has anyone asked him if he writes
what he feels, or if he censors it to make it more "socially acceptable"?

> > what about the hack that produces a public consumable art so they can
> >finance their own ambitions?
> Ever hear of tasteless people?
> There's a sucker born every minute.- P.T. Barnum
> So if someone wants to pay me for hardly exerting myself and I can get fat
> off of it, I'll be a hack too.

Plus who's to say that just because people like it, it isn't good? What's with
this reversal of values? If the majority of people like it, it has to suck?
What's so bad about makin' some moolah and havin' some fun? Admittedly, most
of what the masses seem to enjoy is pretty harsh, but occasionally, the sheep
get some taste and go for something good. Then we, in the case that they
should ever go for the The in any big successful way, would all sit around and
throw stones. "Man, I remember when the The was cool. Matt used to really
write lyrics we could get into. It was so meaningful..." thus implying that
the successful stuff is all of a sudden terrible and tainted, and should be
shunned. I just don't get that. If it's good, enjoy it. Who cares what the
masses think?

I'm sure that's a thread that has been hashed out many a time on this list. I
get the feeling people on this list are quite possessive and don't like
sharing MJ and the The with outsiders (and I'm not sure if I'm an outsider,
but I've been a devoted the The fan since Soul Mining...). Personally, I like
to exhibit the stuff to people I'm getting to know to see what they're like
through their reactions to the music. You can tell a lot about a person by how
they react to things like that...

Anyway, enough babbling. Do what you will with this. I mean no harm, and I
thoroughly enjoy the list. Nods of appreciation in Mark Scott's direction for
the recent the The vocabulary builder...

Jennifer

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- --------------351A0284503EAAE8092AEF25--
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:21:04 -0500 (CDT)
Resent-Message-ID: <"w2lrdB.A.8h.Ozlv1"@purpletape>
Resent-From: infected@cs.uchicago.edu
Resent-Sender: infected-request@cs.uchicago.edu
From: Paul Farrow
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: Saving Private Ryan
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:19:49 -0500
Message-Id:

How is that an anachronism???? Solitude was written and recorded by
Ellington, de Lange, and Mills as early as 1940 maybe even earlier! That
song is NOT a Matt original.


>hmm, surely that's an anachronism!!!!
>
>>One scene, an American soldier is walking through a field in Nazi occupied
>>France and singing "Solitude" to himself.
> see that kind of thing eveyday.
>>
>>~jwh
>>


------------------------------
Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:49:36 -0500 (CDT)
Resent-Message-ID: <"aiylUC.A.8r.8Nmv1"@purpletape>
Resent-From: infected@cs.uchicago.edu
Resent-Sender: infected-request@cs.uchicago.edu
From: Papa
To: Jennifer MacFarlane
CC: jwh , infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Remove Me
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:45:42 -0700
Message-ID: <35BE62A6.5C720337@ix.netcom.com>

Please remove me from this list.

Jennifer MacFarlane wrote:

> Woah - this whole weird conversation opens up way too many questions. I love
> this list and everything, and it's really cool to be able to hear all these
> conversations going on, but I'm goin' nuts here... Plus I've got some time
> here at work where nothin' much is going on, and I just feel like ranting a
> bit.
>
> > > If a hack writer (artist) produces "art" to make a living what
> > > truely separates him from a "true artist"?
> > I can't answer that. I'mnot one to judge how someone takes advantage of
> > their talents- unless they are being immoral.
>
> Too bad there's no indicator for sarcasm on this net thing. I can't tell if
> jwh is kidding when he says "unless they are being immoral". If he is, heh
> heh. If he isn't, then woah, that's terrible. Not that I want to "judge"
> him... but it is. Not that he's terrible, but that judging stuff - who can
> judge??? I dunno....
>
> > > if a true artist doesn't care about "what other people like" then why do
> > > they exhibit their art in a public forum, why would they attempt to be
> > > on an international recording label?
> > How can one be an artist without expression?
> > Besides, food has to come from somewhere...
>
> That's like saying "if a tree falls in the forest, and no one's around, it
> doesn't make a sound. Art is still art whether anyone sees it or not. I have
> some rather impressive pencil sketches (well, I like 'em) that I've done and
> never shown to anyone. I'm not sure if exhibiting them would make me a hack,
> and I don't give a rat's ass about how other people see them, but I still
> think they're art. Or artistic-type-stuff, anyway. I'm not an art major or
> anything. If I sold one for money, realized I could get away with doing that
> instead of working in a box, and decided to take that option in life, would
> that make me a hack? Is Matt a hack because he writes songs that are catchy?
> Heck, that Beaten Generation was pretty hip at the time. People were hummin'
> that every once in a while, and how do we know this isn't just stuff he writes
> because he thinks other people will like it? Has anyone asked him if he writes
> what he feels, or if he censors it to make it more "socially acceptable"?
>
> > > what about the hack that produces a public consumable art so they can
> > >finance their own ambitions?
> > Ever hear of tasteless people?
> > There's a sucker born every minute.- P.T. Barnum
> > So if someone wants to pay me for hardly exerting myself and I can get fat
> > off of it, I'll be a hack too.
>
> Plus who's to say that just because people like it, it isn't good? What's with
> this reversal of values? If the majority of people like it, it has to suck?
> What's so bad about makin' some moolah and havin' some fun? Admittedly, most
> of what the masses seem to enjoy is pretty harsh, but occasionally, the sheep
> get some taste and go for something good. Then we, in the case that they
> should ever go for the The in any big successful way, would all sit around and
> throw stones. "Man, I remember when the The was cool. Matt used to really
> write lyrics we could get into. It was so meaningful..." thus implying that
> the successful stuff is all of a sudden terrible and tainted, and should be
> shunned. I just don't get that. If it's good, enjoy it. Who cares what the
> masses think?
>
> I'm sure that's a thread that has been hashed out many a time on this list. I
> get the feeling people on this list are quite possessive and don't like
> sharing MJ and the The with outsiders (and I'm not sure if I'm an outsider,
> but I've been a devoted the The fan since Soul Mining...). Personally, I like
> to exhibit the stuff to people I'm getting to know to see what they're like
> through their reactions to the music. You can tell a lot about a person by how
> they react to things like that...
>
> Anyway, enough babbling. Do what you will with this. I mean no harm, and I
> thoroughly enjoy the list. Nods of appreciation in Mark Scott's direction for
> the recent the The vocabulary builder...
>
> Jennifer
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Jennifer MacFarlane
>
> Jennifer MacFarlane
>
> 10 Smed Lane S.E. Work: 203-6401
> Calgary Home: (403) 220-0408
> Alberta Netscape Conference Address
> T2C 4T5 Netscape Conference DLS Server
> Canada
> Additional Information:
> Last Name MacFarlane
> First Name Jennifer
> Version 2.1


------------------------------
Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:06:02 -0500 (CDT)
Resent-Message-ID: <"--AiJ.A.g1.HGpv1"@purpletape>
Resent-From: infected@cs.uchicago.edu
Resent-Sender: infected-request@cs.uchicago.edu
From: "Ken Maclean"
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Do i have to suffer for other peoples Art ?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:05:02 MDT
Message-ID: <19980729030503.5838.qmail@hotmail.com>

This is just a personal opinion but to me an artist should be thinking
"is this any good" rather than "will this sell?". If he is really
certain for himself it is good then that should be satisfaction enough.
If other people like it enough to shower him with cash then thats a
plus.If other people think the emperor is buck naked and shivering, then
perhaps they shouldn't be taxed to subsidise it.( A pile of bricks in
the Tate springs to mind.)

However there are times when art needs to be popular to succeed in its
own terms. Is a comedian who nobody finds remotely funny successfull in
his art ?

For Pop stars it must be a difficult path to tread when you have had set
backs like Matt has. If you follow your own muse exclusively and it
sells , no problem the company will let you record as much as you want.
If, like Matt you do your thang and it gets critical acclaim but not
much moolah, or even a loss for the company, there must come a
temptation to think "will this sell" as well as "is this any good
"because art or no art, pragmatism tells you that you are one more
uncommercial album away from being told you are no longer part of the
corporate plan. I wonder if it's this fear that is making MJ so squirmy
about releasing the next album. Then the question arises about ego. Is
your motivation to sing or to be heard ? Does your satisfaction come
from making a boffalo song or from seeing yourself on Top of the Pops ?
Or as Morrissey would put it , would you rather be famous than righteous
or holy .

Just a thought and sort of MJ related.
Ken

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:49:52 -0500 (CDT)
Resent-Message-ID: <"yS3wOB.A.LLB.enqv1"@purpletape>
Resent-From: infected@cs.uchicago.edu
Resent-Sender: infected-request@cs.uchicago.edu
From: "Colin Rafferty"
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: Do i have to suffer for other peoples Art ?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:48:52 PDT
Message-ID: <19980729044853.13405.qmail@hotmail.com>



>This is just a personal opinion but to me an artist should be thinking
>"is this any good" rather than "will this sell?". If he is really
>certain for himself it is good then that should be satisfaction enough.
>If other people like it enough to shower him with cash then thats a
>plus.If other people think the emperor is buck naked and shivering,
then
>perhaps they shouldn't be taxed to subsidise it.( A pile of bricks in
>the Tate springs to mind.)
>
While I do agree with you that monetary gain shouldn't be very high on
an artist's list of motivations, I do think that it's more than
acceptable for that artist to question not only "is this good in my
eyes?" but also "how will other people react to this?"--not only
acceptable, but necessary if he or she plans on showing his or her
work--the purpose, I would argue, of getting that art outside of one's
head.

OK--that's of my proverbial chest. Responding to another thread--the
one about making your own personal cd of the The songs--I'm afraid that
I'm going to sound like a purist, but I don't think I could do that; in
fact, I know I can't do that, because I've tried to make all the The mix
tapes before and failed. The The are the only band I've found that
consistantly put out albums, rather than collections of singles. If I'm
going to listen to Dusk, or Mind Bomb, or whatever, then I've got to
budget the hour to listen to the whole thing. Other albums like this:
Ok Computer, Gentlemen (afghan whigs), and maybe Marquee Moon
(television). With most other bands (and albums by the artists I just
listed), I can listen to one or two songs, and shut it off. Not the
The.

Colin

ps--watched Infected for the first time today, and I'm very glad that
matt cut his hair, as it makes him look much younger.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:19:28 -0500 (CDT)
Resent-Message-ID: <"na9gR.A.ZhB.V9yv1"@purpletape>
Resent-From: infected@cs.uchicago.edu
Resent-Sender: infected-request@cs.uchicago.edu
From: Sheridan Zabel
To: "'Colin Rafferty'" ,
infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: RE: Do i have to suffer for other peoples Art ?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:45:30 -0400
Message-ID: <65B793F0016DD11196E800A0C960343607208C@FS_1>

As an art historian, I find this conversation fascinating. Throughout
visual art history people have created art with other people's reactions
in mind. I particularly notice this with Pop Art of the '60's. I am
not saying that "true artists" compromise themselves to make other
people happy, but I feel that they have a need to evoke something in
others and they create things accordingly.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Colin Rafferty [SMTP:khebar@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 12:49 AM
> To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
> Subject: Re: Do i have to suffer for other peoples Art ?
>
>
>
> While I do agree with you that monetary gain shouldn't be very high on
>
> an artist's list of motivations, I do think that it's more than
> acceptable for that artist to question not only "is this good in my
> eyes?" but also "how will other people react to this?"--not only
> acceptable, but necessary if he or she plans on showing his or her
> work--the purpose, I would argue, of getting that art outside of one's
>
> head.
>
> OK--that's of my proverbial chest. Responding to another thread--the
> one about making your own personal cd of the The songs--I'm afraid
> that
> I'm going to sound like a purist, but I don't think I could do that;
> in
> fact, I know I can't do that, because I've tried to make all the The
> mix
> tapes before and failed. The The are the only band I've found that
> consistantly put out albums, rather than collections of singles. If
> I'm
> going to listen to Dusk, or Mind Bomb, or whatever, then I've got to
> budget the hour to listen to the whole thing. Other albums like this:
>
> Ok Computer, Gentlemen (afghan whigs), and maybe Marquee Moon
> (television). With most other bands (and albums by the artists I just
>
> listed), I can listen to one or two songs, and shut it off. Not the
> The.
>
> Colin
>
> ps--watched Infected for the first time today, and I'm very glad that
> matt cut his hair, as it makes him look much younger.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:30:46 -0500 (CDT)
Resent-Message-ID: <"5TBglB.A.MMC.k67v1"@purpletape>
Resent-From: infected@cs.uchicago.edu
Resent-Sender: infected-request@cs.uchicago.edu
From: "Luis Costa"
To:
Subject: Re: Do i have to suffer for other peoples Art ?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:03:58 +0100
Message-ID: <000301bdbb51$e89a18c0$81c741c2@host.telepac.pt>

>[...] Throughout visual art history people have created art with other
people's reactions
>in mind. [...]I am not saying that "true artists" compromise themselves to
make other
>people happy, but I feel that they have a need to evoke something in
>others and they create things accordingly.


Of course. I don't believe that an _artist_ creates _whatever_ for
him/herself.
It helps if he feels that he's creating something in which he believes and
loves,
but the aim is to _sell_ his work to someone else. It's almost impossible, I
guess,
to create something without thinking about what other people will think
about it,
and, of course, if it will sell.
LC
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:47:47 -0500 (CDT)
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Resent-From: infected@cs.uchicago.edu
Resent-Sender: infected-request@cs.uchicago.edu
From: Sheridan Zabel
To: "'all2human@4dcomm.com'" ,
Papa

Cc: jwh , infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: RE: Remove Me
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:22:34 -0400
Message-ID: <65B793F0016DD11196E800A0C960343607208E@FS_1>

Hi! This is how you unsubscribe:




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Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:26:30 -0500 (CDT)
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From: all2human@4dcomm.com
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To: Papa
Cc: jwh , infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Remove Me
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 12:25:46 -800
Message-id: <35bf773a.27ab.0@4dcomm.com>


>Please remove me from this list.
>
>Jennifer MacFarlane wrote:
>
>> Woah - this whole weird conversation opens up way too many questions. I love
>> this list and everything, and it's really cool to be able to hear all these
>> conversations going on, but I'm goin' nuts here... Plus I've got some time
>> here at work where nothin' much is going on, and I just feel like ranting
a
>> bit.
>>
>> > > If a hack writer (artist) produces "art" to make a living what
>> > > truely separates him from a "true artist"?
>> > I can't answer that. I'mnot one to judge how someone takes advantage of
>> > their talents- unless they are being immoral.
>>
>> Too bad there's no indicator for sarcasm on this net thing. I can't tell
if
>> jwh is kidding when he says "unless they are being immoral". If he is, heh
>> heh. If he isn't, then woah, that's terrible. Not that I want to "judge"
>> him... but it is. Not that he's terrible, but that judging stuff - who can
>> judge??? I dunno....
>>
>> > > if a true artist doesn't care about "what other people like" then why
do
>> > > they exhibit their art in a public forum, why would they attempt to be
>> > > on an international recording label?
>> > How can one be an artist without expression?
>> > Besides, food has to come from somewhere...
>>
>> That's like saying "if a tree falls in the forest, and no one's around, it
>> doesn't make a sound. Art is still art whether anyone sees it or not. I have
>> some rather impressive pencil sketches (well, I like 'em) that I've done
and
>> never shown to anyone. I'm not sure if exhibiting them would make me a hack,
>> and I don't give a rat's ass about how other people see them, but I still
>> think they're art. Or artistic-type-stuff, anyway. I'm not an art major or
>> anything. If I sold one for money, realized I could get away with doing that
>> instead of working in a box, and decided to take that option in life, would
>> that make me a hack? Is Matt a hack because he writes songs that are catchy?
>> Heck, that Beaten Generation was pretty hip at the time. People were hummin'
>> that every once in a while, and how do we know this isn't just stuff he writes
>> because he thinks other people will like it? Has anyone asked him if he writes
>> what he feels, or if he censors it to make it more "socially acceptable"?
>>
>> > > what about the hack that produces a public consumable art so they can
>> > >finance their own ambitions?
>> > Ever hear of tasteless people?
>> > There's a sucker born every minute.- P.T. Barnum
>> > So if someone wants to pay me for hardly exerting myself and I can get
fat
>> > off of it, I'll be a hack too.
>>
>> Plus who's to say that just because people like it, it isn't good? What's
with
>> this reversal of values? If the majority of people like it, it has to suck?
>> What's so bad about makin' some moolah and havin' some fun? Admittedly, most
>> of what the masses seem to enjoy is pretty harsh, but occasionally, the sheep
>> get some taste and go for something good. Then we, in the case that they
>> should ever go for the The in any big successful way, would all sit around
and
>> throw stones. "Man, I remember when the The was cool. Matt used to really
>> write lyrics we could get into. It was so meaningful..." thus implying that
>> the successful stuff is all of a sudden terrible and tainted, and should
be
>> shunned. I just don't get that. If it's good, enjoy it. Who cares what the
>> masses think?
>>
>> I'm sure that's a thread that has been hashed out many a time on this list.
I
>> get the feeling people on this list are quite possessive and don't like
>> sharing MJ and the The with outsiders (and I'm not sure if I'm an outsider,
>> but I've been a devoted the The fan since Soul Mining...). Personally, I
like
>> to exhibit the stuff to people I'm getting to know to see what they're like
>> through their reactions to the music. You can tell a lot about a person by
how
>> they react to things like that...
>>
>> Anyway, enough babbling. Do what you will with this. I mean no harm, and
I
>> thoroughly enjoy the list. Nods of appreciation in Mark Scott's direction
for
>> the recent the The vocabulary builder...
>>
>> Jennifer
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Jennifer MacFarlane
>>
>> Jennifer MacFarlane
>>
>> 10 Smed Lane S.E. Work: 203-6401
>> Calgary Home: (403) 220-0408
>> Alberta Netscape Conference Address
>> T2C 4T5 Netscape Conference DLS Server
>> Canada
>> Additional Information:
>> Last Name MacFarlane
>> First Name Jennifer
>> Version 2.1
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:10:15 -0500 (CDT)
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From: Johann C Chacko
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: Do i have to suffer for other peoples Art ?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:09:44 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID:

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Luis Costa wrote:

>
> Of course. I don't believe that an _artist_ creates _whatever_ for
> him/herself.
> It helps if he feels that he's creating something in which he believes and
> loves,
> but the aim is to _sell_ his work to someone else. It's almost impossible, I
> guess,
> to create something without thinking about what other people will think
> about it,
> and, of course, if it will sell.
> LC
>

A lot of Artists don't sell anything ...doesn't make them any lesss of an
artist. Artists are human beings, not too much weirder than us, so if they
create something that pleases themselves, there *will* be others who would
derive just as much pleasure from it and pay money to do so. Off course
I'm referring to artists with talent.

Regards,
Johann


- --------
Johann C Chacko
johann@U.Arizona.EDU
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~johann
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:02:40 -0500 (CDT)
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From: "Wally"
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: A NIGHT IN SAPPHIRE
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:00:51 +0000
Message-Id: <199807300902.KAA14573@ice.medianet.ie>

A NIGHT IN SAPPHIRE

Manhattan Bistro.2-25-97.Soho New York , Spring St.

My first day of solitude.to rebuild my strength, it's been good. I
really want to write, I just don't know where to start or exactly what
I want from this. I guess Bugsy is in my thoughts more than anything
else, maybe I just needed today away from the others to think of her
without interruption. It's nice here, quite French, classy-chic. You
feel they would appreciate someone writing in the corner.adds to the
décor. I guess I should go over that Wednesday night in the Sapphire
club on Eldridge street lest I forget, which of course I won't but
perhaps now I may recall a tiny detail that may escape a future
recollection.

It was our first full day in New York.
I think we did the Empire State but I'm not sure. The Sapphire was a
little scary, New York wasn't ours yet and the area is kinda run down.
The club was just a black door with some bass and beats seeping out to
the street and a small white sticker on the door announcing 'SAPPHIRE'
upon closer inspection. It was dark inside, very dark, very small,
mostly black people, soul-funk sounds, small crowd but on the floor,
none of the Dublin bullshit of waiting for drunkenness or someone else
to roll the ball. We were weary at first.What's the story here? Are we
noticeable strangers? Are we welcome here? No one paid any notice of
us, these people let the music get under their skin as naturally as
they walk, as naturally as they talk and with the same swagger. We
stood inhibited, around by the bar watching, sussing, Bootsie couldn't
resist the groove, this shit is right down his street, so he's dragged
in by the music. Bootsie dances well, he dances fully. We watched to
see any reaction to him, he was watched as a new addition to the floor
usually is and then became just another.

Making a place yours lifts gradually like a fog but this is New York
where you look, dance, dress, talk how the hell you want. It feels
good to be on the other side of the world yet completely relaxed and
at home somewhere. I felt as though I got some relief from the fact
that the DJ was white, sounds stupid now and it is but that's how I
felt.

I feel. almost, well I'm trying to remember the sequence of events
which I'm terrible at, I can never recall details only impressions.
There were couples on the floor.I'm dancing now by the way, we all
are, the place is ours. but the girls of these couples have no
inhibitions, very seductive dancing in front of their partners, for
their benefit and for the benefit of every other hot-blooded male in
the place. These girls look good and they know it. Then there's this
girl, dancing alone, dancing well, for herself not for anyone's
attention, not glamorous like most of the others, but she had
something special about her. By comparison she was dressed down, a
long grey cardigan with one button done at the top, black trousers
loose, and Bugsy Malone shoes, brogues but black and white.

On Friday night I arrived at a club called 'the Cooler' before the
other three because I went alone to catch a show at the actors studio,
but there was a Jamaican band, six guys one doll, only percussion and
vocals but beautiful and pure and inspiring and magic. I was hunched
down at the front and just glanced to my right to see a pair of
trousers trying to hide a pair of Bugsy Malones, my heart skipped, but
of course it wasn't her.

Her hair was maybe just short of shoulder length, fair. I'd watch her
dancing 'til she'd look up, then she caught me, then I let her, then
we'd smile to ourselves and continue dancing. The floor was filling
fast so you'd have to move to make space for yourself, and eventually
we were back to back, occasionally touching off each other,
accidentally of course.

'I am the lighthouse
I am the sea
I am the air that you breathe
Gravitate to me.'

Matt's words ebbed and flowed in and out of my mind.

We're dancing face to face now, but not together.Don't let it pass you
by Wally. I take out a silk cut and give her one, she takes it with a
smile, looks to see the brand. I told her they were very light, I got
them in Ireland. I can't remember what we said then. We danced some
more and she sat down near to where I danced, beside Johnny. She
didn't smoke much of it, and she went away, but returned with her
drink and sat on a stool at the bar. In between, two guys were talking
to her, one moreso with his mate for backup.

One of the noticeable things about a lot of these people is their
bravado, no inhibition, no subtlety. One bloke, very slick looking
approached two women near us at the bar and almost had to be beaten
away before he casually looks up and around to home in on his next
victim.

When I came out of the jacks she was alone again at the bar, I called
for a rolling rock and asked her if she wanted a drink. The music was
quite loud so we had to scream in each others ears and even then I'd
need a repeat usually. I couldn't really hear what drink she wanted
except that it was something, '. sour', so I repeated phonetically as
best I could to the barman and hoped for the best, he just nodded, to
my enormous relief.

'You don't have to' she said.
'I know.'
'.so.you live around here..?' what a line.
No, this wasn't a girl for cute lines. So we talked a bit, or rather
screamed a bit. She lives around here. Her name is Jenny. She works in
a furniture store. 'because dancing doesn't pay shit', that's what she
does, ballet. She's moving to Denver to. well, to do ballet. She's
Welsh, well her grandparents are, but she said 'I'm Welsh'. I told her
my surname was Welsh. The best thing was the comfortable silences
between screams. Then she says 'Hold on', and puts down her drink at
the start of a song. She graces the floor again. Some smoothie
gravitates toward her, she's not having any of it but these guys don't
take 'No' quickly. Her previous two stalkers are now beside me at the
bar, watching her dance. The backup leans over to me.'Y'know buddy,
there's about a thousand guys in here watching this girl'. 'I don't
blame them, she looks cool'. He leans back to his superior and reports
to him. Then they're over at her again. She's trying to be as
reasonable as possible without being rude. Eventually they leave her
alone.

My vice and virtue though here feeling less the latter, being that I
don't compete, let's me just watch the proceedings.

She comes back over looking really pissed off.
I go fishin'.'listen if I'm in the way here, I can go.'
'No.it's alright, I ain't married'.
'Maybe you shouldn't dance so good, you draw too much attention to
yourself' 'Well at least I ain't doin' that shit' as she points to one
of the purpose built sex machines, basic pleasure model.

She finished her drink, gave me her hand .'listen, I gotta go, it was
really nice meetin' you'. I took her hand, kissed her cheek.and she
was gone. I can't fully remember my lips against her cheek. I wish I
could.

I met this girl for a couple of hours of my life, and know
virtually nothing about her.
Yet I don't think a day has passed since, when I haven't
thought of her.
wally@clubi.ie
http://www.dojo.ie/java
java@dojo.ie
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:51:20 -0500 (CDT)
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From: Lea Curry
To: Luis Costa
CC: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: Do i have to suffer for other peoples Art ?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:53:23 -0700
Message-ID: <35C07AD3.CA1DD468@sirius.com>

Louis writes:

> Of course. I don't believe that an _artist_ creates _whatever_ for
> him/herself.
> It helps if he feels that he's creating something in which he believes and
> loves,
> but the aim is to _sell_ his work to someone else


I dont know about that. I have grown up in a family of visual
artists. I have lived and now live with a visual artist (a sculptor).
I was married to a painter. I lived with a woodworker. And I have
sublet studio space to artists for the last twenty years. And none of
them created work to sell or were much motivated by it. They did work
for THEMSELVES. To this day most of the artists I know wont lift a
finger to sell their work, as they are not business people and dont WANT
to be.

They live poor and have day jobs, or do whatever to get by, but the
art is not their livelyhood. Not that they wouldnt be happy to have a
patron, or be "discovered" if it meant that someone ELSE would take care
of the selling part, and they could continue to work "as inspired". I
know there are many artists who are commercially successful and maybe
some of them just are by great luck and maybe others have become
sucessful "craftspeople". But I dont think its the rule that "all
artists : or even "most" do their art with "selling it" in mind. That
hasnt been my experience.

Lea
------------------------------
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:52:49 -0500 (CDT)
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From: "Mark Scott"
To: Lea Curry , Luis Costa
Cc: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: Do i have to suffer for other peoples Art ?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:57:52 -0700
Message-Id: <19980730095343.03f6c5af.in@mail.neversoft.com>




Every day I make 'art' for commercial purposes. I go home and cannot
stand to touch a pencil or paintbrush (unless I am on the phone, when
curious muses come to me and all manner of bizarre creatures emerge onto
any handy piece of paper - if I ever become a reknowned artist then my
electric bills will be worth a fortune).



However I will spend a whole weekend without sleep making music with my
guitars and computer that only about three or four people have ever
heard.



DO I do that for me or because I want to be revered and lauded? I don't
know, but I do know that I would rather do that than almost anything
else. In my line of work most of the artists and animators are
disillusioned would - be musicians, so we're getting our kicks another
way.



eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.neversoft.com/indev/



href=3D"http://www.videogames.com/features/universal/apoc_dd/072298/index.h=
tml"=
eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.videogames.com/features/universal/apoc_dd/072=
298/index.html



Cheers



Mark Scott









At 06:53 AM 7/30/98 -0700, Lea Curry wrote:

>Louis writes:

>

>> Of course. I don't believe that an _artist_ creates _whatever_
for

>> him/herself.

>> It helps if he feels that he's creating something in which he
believes and

>> loves,

>> but the aim is to _sell_ his work to someone else

>

>

>=A0 I dont know about that.=A0 I have grown up in a family of=20
visual

>artists.=A0 I have lived and now live with a visual artist (a
sculptor).

>I was married to a painter.=A0 I lived with a woodworker.=A0 And I
have

>sublet studio space to artists for the last twenty years.=A0 And none
of

>them created work to sell or were much motivated by it. They did
work

>for THEMSELVES. To this day most of the artists I know wont lift
a

>finger to sell their work, as they are not business people and dont
WANT

>to be.

>

>=A0 They live poor and have day jobs, or do whatever to get by, but
the

>art is not their livelyhood.=A0 Not that they wouldnt be happy to have
a

>patron, or be "discovered" if it meant that someone ELSE
would take care

>of the selling part, and they could continue to work "as
inspired".=A0 I

>know there are many artists who are commercially successful and
maybe

>some of them just are by great luck and maybe others=A0 have
become

>sucessful "craftspeople".=A0 But I dont think its the rule
that "all

>artists : or even "most" do their art with "selling
it" in mind.=A0 That

>hasnt been my experience.=A0

>

>Lea

>



------------------------------
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:18:00 -0500 (CDT)
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From: "Ken Maclean"
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: The raison d'art.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:16:42 MDT
Message-ID: <19980731031644.962.qmail@hotmail.com>

First off i would like to make clear that i dont think that using your
creativity to earn a living or to entertain is in any way morally
inferior to art for its own sake just that they are intrinsicaly
different. When i said that artists should be thinking "is this any
good? " rather than "will this sell" i agree with Colin that part of
this could very legitimately include what other people might think of
it. But the following leads me to consider how far from its original
purpose art has come since money has become involved.

Louis writes:
>
>> Of course. I don't believe that an _artist_ creates _whatever_ for
>> him/herself.
>> It helps if he feels that he's creating something in which he
believes and
>> loves,
>> but the aim is to _sell_ his work to someone else

So did the neolithic man/woman, passing a rainy afternoon waiting for
that sabertooth to piss off by sketching Bison on his wall think

"i wonder how much i can get for this ? Its got to be worth a bearskin
or at least a fish bone needle."? Not much point in selling it if you
have to move cave into the bargain is there ?

Art at its very first inception, like music, was originally performed
from a creative impulse to experiment,learn, explore,stimulate and to
entertain both oneself and the people you knew. In my opinion the desire
to profit from it came later as evidenced by the people on this list who
spend their free time creatively for their own pleasure.

Still as Bukowski said "there can be art in opening a tin of sardines."

My question to Sheridan would be "Is the commercial fine art world of
galleries , shows and exhibitions really just a gentrified racket ?"

Yours leading the campaign for Mark's first recording contract.
Ken.

______________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:21:45 -0500 (CDT)
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From: "Ken Maclean"
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: evolutionary selection pressure against true Buddhists.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:20:50 MDT
Message-ID: <19980731032051.2184.qmail@hotmail.com>

Further to


This kind of logic doesn't really appeal to me but
> there are a lot of Buddhists in the world some of whom might rank
"true
> happiness" as their favourite The The song.
>
> Ken.
>
>Followed by

Not true; if they're true Buddhists they neither like it nor dislike
it,
and it neither their favourite nor their most hated song ;-)

Johann

Very true and i was having a good laugh about this untill i realized it
was keeping me from Nirvana.

However as there are millions of reproducing Buddhists around i can
only assume that they are not averse to a little pleasure. Ever tried
having sex without feeling any pleasure ? (Sorry ladies i'm speaking
man to man here as short of an electrode on the prostrate, our equipment
will not cooperate unless its pleasurable, so please no tales of
previous disappointments.)

Ken

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Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:33:44 -0500 (CDT)
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From: "Ken Maclean"
To: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: A slip of the mouse
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:32:51 MDT
Message-ID: <19980731033252.14027.qmail@hotmail.com>


Please forgive my sending out a repeat copy of a previous post by
mistake. If you dont i will be forced to pretend it was a piece of
performance art and bill you accordingly.
Ken

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------------------------------
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:51:09 -0500 (CDT)
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From: Jorge Hernandez
To: Ken Maclean
cc: infected@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: evolutionary selection pressure against true Buddhists.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:50:46 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID:

> However as there are millions of reproducing Buddhists around i can
> only assume that they are not averse to a little pleasure. Ever tried
> having sex without feeling any pleasure ?

I thought they reproduced asexually by cellular mitosis?!?!

~jwh
------- end -------